This is the best video I've seen on LFS in years.

Superb pictures. Very professional assembly! A real action movie trailer. That's wonderful. Cheer. I await the sequel with genuine interest.

Still, I'm not the target audience for cops and robbers racing, stunts, and tire burning.

Quote from Flotch :

as a student it was more convenient to play online from time to time ... now, it would require a bit too much time to achieve any capability to drive properly a given combo .
Taking a car with a kind of default setup and doing few laps anywhere is plenty of fun, but usually I have to end quickly for "family life" or so on => short cruise sessions are satisfying (even if I agree regarding the multiplayer aspect : doing short races of GTi in the time around Blackwood was insane )

I always risk being called an old man, but it was easier when it was enough to get behind the wheel under the desk at the first opportunity. We played on square 17-inch screens (with scary input lag). But we found the interior view super immersive at the time. As a result, we were often ridiculed by children playing mouse in an outside view.

Since that time, my technique has really improved on one point. Press "P" at a place where I can return at race without crashing. This is a bit of a tricky skill to exploit online . (me neither, I don't live alone in a cave)

The bots are waiting for me. Bots race without qualms. Bots don't complain if I touch them a little. Bots don't stop on the trail to chat. Bots don't try to explain to me the art of taking a curve in a language that even God doesn't know.
We're not going to have a beer together every night, but it's not going too badly. Especially since bots take vitamins with modding.

This is also what I find great in LFS. It's a game that brings together generations with different practices, and to which we remain attached even when we have become gentrified and/or withdrawn from competition (for which I have never had any ambition)

Quote from Flotch :

lol, not playing online does not mean I do not play at all. I am even planning to buy a VR headset for my 40s coming in few days : and the goal is mainly only to use LFS with it ... no time to play frenzy, that's life, but I remain a fan of what LFS is bringing to me when I do few laps even against some AI

Since you are in the area, would it be possible to know why you no longer play online? It is not unrelated to the subject.

Is it just a matter of time and availability? Tired of online races ? Has the mod system revolutionized your offline experience with the bots ?

Quote from MousemanLV :

God you sound like an old man who is experiencing your 2nd mid life crisis. Get over it, the statistics speak otherwise about this game. It's a fun game but the golden times were already over in 2014. While the industry moves forward and offers more and more stuff for the simracing titles, LFS is just stuck. Not that it's a bad thing (just because a lot of you praise it and are stuck in some 2009 mindset).

At what age does the 2nd mid life crisis ? I am interested.

Seriously, people aren't right or wrong, either because they're too new to know or because they're too old to understand. It is intellectually very comfortable, but it is false.

Whether or not you play online is also irrelevant from the point of view of what we are talking about. A lot of people who buy the game are playing offline and that's understandable (and economically desirable).

To be serious, the (undeniable) fact that the industry is progressing doesn't mean there isn't room for anything other than big productions. Besides, you are the proof. You have the choice. And you are there. Don't other games allow you to have fun with friends? Why precisely on LFS?

Quote from Scawen :

This thread started as a useful (or at least interesting) conversation but is going downhill, as it starts to become a discussion on the pros and cons of LFS and an outlet of anger for the usual frustrated people.

I'm tempted to move the OT posts out but instead I'll just point out what's happening before it all goes to hell.

Almost certainly later we'll have the usual posts, filled with anger, then get reported posts and I'll have to close the thread.

But small possibility we could stay on topic?

Don't worry Scawen. There are no problems here (at least I think ).

It's hard to talk about anything here without the usual catchphrases returning. It is deplorable, of course, but inevitable. This should not prevent dialogue. And I would like to answer that. If you allow it .

Quote from MousemanLV :

You just won't understand it because you have only been around since 2021.

Appearances are sometimes deceiving, young padawan .

If, indeed, I was never active here before 2021, I know LFS from its very first demo release, back then released on CDROM with now defunct real paper game magazines. I later followed the VW Scirocco episode with great interest. Especially since I had owned the first version of this car and was planning eventually (I didn't, luckily) to buy the new one. Today this car is an ancestor that is not even manufactured by Volkswagen anymore. But never got into LFS. I didn't miss any of the procrastination and setbacks in the development of LFS.

When I was able to make a new small place in my life for virtual races, I also thought that LFS had disappeared. But I checked the source (an old man reflex, I guess). During these few years of interruption (I was not in prison, I worked too much) the world of car simulation had changed a lot. I could have played anything that exists.

I didn't return to LFS "out of nostalgia" but because (at its level), despite its shortcomings and imperfections, LFS has something unique. Even more unique today than 20 years ago. (for good reasons, I specify ).

Quote from Viperakecske :

Of course they think LFS is abandoned by the developers when lfs havent had any updates since S3 release... only mods and that one is meh

All the promises and nice looking pictures about new tracks,day/night videos,yet nothing is out and seems like it will stay like that for a while

The problems you are talking about exist. The devs have explained this several times. And we have had recent developments. Even if there too, there are things to say (there is always something to say about everything. It's endless)

But the "journalist" of the video imagines that the game is abandoned by the devs and that the community manages it alone, without even checking the info on LFS.net?! This is a problem that goes beyond the small internal world of LFS. Regardless of the current state of the game.

Quote from MousemanLV :

I play AC as well but I play LFS for drift purposes mostly. The drift community is pretty okay and it's a lot of fun to just chill on drift servers with friends.

You see ? You also know how to say positive things sometimes !

Quote from MousemanLV :

Those days are long gone with the argument that LFS can be ran on anything....- just because that's kind of irrelevant. Your average user has enough PC power to run way more demanding games and it's not really a selling point anymore. Even a PC that cost approx 1k eur in 2016 now would be worth what, 150 eur? and it would run something like AC on mods ez.

What you say is correct. But some players hesitate between S2 & S3 for a difference of less than 7 euros...

On the other hand, it is clear that many videos on LFS visible on the Net are made with minimal graphics and therefore (probably) with less powerful computers.

Why are you here ? And not on AC ? For example ? While you have a racing beast ?

Quote from Gutholz :

Did you try "Show: Approved" ?
It only shows mods that were manually selected and they should have decent quality. I think that works okay, gets rid of all the tweak mods and derivatives.

(If you think a good mod is missing from "Approved" list then you can rate it or suggest it.)

The list of approved mods is already long (99 as I speak) and it really is a catch-all. Maybe here too we should think about sub-categories.

Quote from mbutcher :

I started an LFS review (not just a review, more of a showcase/discussion) video about 4 years ago, but I stalled on progress and never finished it. That was mainly because I didn't think it would be worth the effort if it only bounced around the LFS community. Every time I watch a "review" of LFS that gets it wrong, it makes me want to finish it... Maybe this time I will, even if only a handful of non-LFS players watch it. At least it will be based in fact, from a long time fan.

Not letting those who don't know speak in place of those who know is a very good idea.

Can you tell us more? Do you need anything to finish faster (other than motivation )? Reruns? More in-game videos? Testimonials from players? Interview developers ? Help with video editing? Something else ?

Quote from Chunkiegg :

Yeah exactly!

And if the LFS car is closely matched to the real world Caterham, it would be an interesting comparison, especially if the lighting conditions are similar etc and using VR.

It's selling the sim and makes for some cool helmet cam shots in the real world footage

It would really push LFS to the forefront again and also make people realise that the sim is still relevant

I agree, but it's not magic .
This video is already 7 years old. It was on Youtube and on the Video page of this site. You hadn't seen it and you wished it existed !

7 years ago, when this video was released, the gap in graphics quality between LFS and other games was less noticeable. And the broadcast of this video did not change anything. Such videos are indispensable. It reassures those who seek absolute realism. LFS also needs to provide evidence of realism. But on this ground, I doubt that LFS will ever be able to achieve with the big productions which buy licenses from manufacturers and racing events and which have dozens of real laser tracks. This is the fight of David against Goliath.

The good news is that LFS has other strengths that purely reproductive reality games will never have.

LFS is creative, and that makes the difference. LFS is accessible to everyone. Because inexpensive and easy to run with a small computer. LFS is independent, no need to use third party software to run it. LFS has all the assets to become again today the great popular game that it was. And he can emerge strengthened from this heritage.

Quote from martin18 :

What more power would you like? This almost as fast as GTR class haha

That's the big question. And as you know, there are two answers . Neither of them is mathematical.

Ideally, in this category (and IMHO) the player's car should be powerful enough to scare a bit. Currently, it is a fair bit. If it makes you feel any better (or not? ) the FZR also seems a little tight to me. It's a story of personal feelings. I am unable to tell you precisely how much additional power would be required ? The good news is that there is another way to calculate this.

I could only do a few laps on Rockingham Historic & South City Town Course. The AI was 4 seconds behind. If you make a version of the same car that goes 5 seconds faster per lap, we'll have a car that appeals to people like me, and that car can also be driven by the AI to compensate its weakness.

What do you think ? It's a good idea, right?

Seriously, I will already test your latest version.

Quote from nacim :

I think this is a real subject, thanks Scawen for creating the separate thread...

What you say is relevant and my remarks do not detract from the interest of your professional vision .

However, a graphical update is already planned and announced. I don't know if this update will bring LFS up to 2023 standards? Everyone knows the importance of the visual challenge and knows the current graphics deficiencies of LFS, as well as their consequences on the image of the game.

Although, like k_badam, I am one of those who adapt best to the current graphics, I hope that this graphical update will improve the perception of the game for all its users, current and future. But it always comes back to the same point: ask the devs to do what they already do; to do it faster; to do it differently; to do it over and over again before you've even finished, etc. It's a never-ending story that has been going on for 20 years. I think we have to change the paradigm.

The graphical appearance of LFS contributes to the problem described in the topic title chosen by Scawen. But that doesn't explain everything. LFS has unique qualities that are misunderstood and/or despised by some Net commentators.

On the other hand, part of the community seems to have forgotten its qualities and dreams of seeing LFS look like other big games. Devs are caught between a rock and a hard place chasing a train they will never catch up with. (that the devs correct me if I say something stupid) LFS will never be at the level of the current big productions. It is a question of resources (financial and human). But it is also a question of identity.

It is this strong identity that we must work on, reflect on, improve and communicate. The rest is cosmetic, ephemeral, fluctuating, common to all games. This is just the great challenge of creation in the face of technological progress.

Very fun car to drive. That's good enough for a car .

I like the feeling of the front end, which is very present, the way the rear slips away and comes back into place. The behavior is very healthy. The different setups are pretty good. I have a preference for the Max Attack.

In my opinion (@ Martin18, You asked me for my opinion, I'm giving it to you ) this car might deserve a slightly faster engine compared to its name (perhaps also to equip the bots with it so as not to not leave them 4 seconds behind each lap). All in all, this is already a very promising achievement. Would it be possible to have a more "old school" alternative setup with a 6-speed H gearbox?

I have more remarks on the graphic aspect. Nice design. I like the detail of the sun visors, I don't mind the optimization of the mirrors. The bonnet and the dashboard would, however, require a few dozen additional triangles to be up to LFS standards. Criticism is easy, art is difficult .

Quote from martin18 :

More to come in the near future, maybe a competitor of sorts 😉

Thank you for all your creations. I eagerly await the sequel .

Quote from Chunkiegg :

Now that Rockingham getting some publicity again thanks to Cinch, maybe look at a promotion with them i.e. Side by side comparison drives with a caterham and one of the LFS equivalents.
.

This video already exists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlgrZkopgCQ
But it would be good to have a new one with the graphics update.

Quote from mbutcher :

I don't think it's fair to lay all of the blame at the devs feet.

You said the main thing. Without idolatrous beings, one must see the reality. If the devs were able to make this game 20 years ago, at a time when LFS was ahead of the competition in all areas except official licenses, it's because the devs know what they do. So there is no need to explain it to them. Especially since many of the expected developments are already in development. The devs are working, we have to support them and trust them. What else ?

I understand all the impatience. Over time, LFS has generated a lot of hopes and expectations. But I have a lot of trouble with the idea that you have to expect everything from the devs (and from the others in general). I'm not (only) wondering what LFS can do to please me more? I wonder (also) what I could do to make LFS appeal to people other than me, as much as LFS appeals to me.

Like the devs, I have a job with an endless list of things to do. So, I know how difficult, if not impossible, it is to have both hands on the handlebars and watch your little bike leisurely through the forest from afar. This is (also) where the community can be useful. It's good to keep warm here, like walruses on the pack ice. It's (also) good to get your hands dirty a bit. With simple actions, like reacting when something wrong is said on LFS. So that journalists understand what they are talking about? Like making videos to explain to others (we already know) how awesome this game is. LFS became invisible (also) because its community became invisible.

{to Scawen} I hope that the meaning remains perceptible.

I agree with everything that has been said. Except Steam. I think it's also an advantage (for some players) not to be dependent on Steam. Strategically, for the visibility of the game, it can be discussed.

When I say something is missing, I was thinking of something simple and possible to do now. A few concrete actions, without waiting for ongoing developments (which we hope will be rapid ).

I start with the following idea. We all enjoy LFS as it is today. Even if we expect more (it will always be so, even after the next updates). It must be recognized that few things, among those that we see on the net, make you want to test the game. While at home, racing on my ultra-panoramic screen in real fov, the question of quality graph no longer arises. It's beautiful, immersive, intense. I don't care if the graphics don't live up to the next Rennsport.

A new name (LFS revival ), linked to an update, is a good idea. The problem is that we have to wait for the update and the game needs visibility today. Good demonstration videos, with views and comments, on the topic "LFS forever", would be a good way to react on the net.

Quote from FIZ :

The problem is that LFS looks like a game from 20 years ago.

We all know that. Graphic work is in progress. That's not the point. People say and think the game is abandoned and community run. Journalists talk without even bothering to check. The problem is elsewhere.

EDIT : Perhaps a separate topic should be created to discuss these issues? We pollute the topic.

EDIT 2: I don't know who created a separate topic, but thanks

Last edited by Avraham Vandezwin, Tue, 7 Feb 2023 14:41.

Anything people say wrong about LFS is harmful.

We all have our history with LFS. Personally, I replay LFS because I know the game since its release. But I must admit that if I was referring to what I can read or see about it today, I would not have tried it.
Yet LFS is my favorite sim (and the only one I still play after trying almost everything).
The problem is that I would have no way of realizing that I'm wrong not to test LFS. And it's not only due to the graphic aspect. LFS has many other qualities that are not well known to today's car game audience.

{to Scawen} This is where I say it might have something to do with communicating about game news. I'm not saying you don't do anything or you do wrong. I think something is missing to attract a new audience to the game. And that's a shame because this game is (already) one of the best in the world.

I know it's total rubbish and does not correspond to reality.

When you search Live For Speed on the internet, what do you see?
Only people who test the demo version of the game saying that this game is 20 years old.
Afterwards, bloggers, lazy journalists, people in general repeat what they see on the surface.They don't look any deeper.

What I mean is that it would probably help if the community got together to post recent S3 videos that make you want to play the game. And unfortunately, even if such videos exist, this videos are not visible enough.
I think that collective reflection and action on communication about the game would be useful.
(sorry for my English)

Perhaps there is something to do with the communication on the news of the game?

Quote from Scawen :

How much is 1 hour of fun worth?

How much time might you use your S3 license?

With the answer to these two questions you can work out if it's worth it.

It looks to me like the cheapest deal I've ever seen. I don't know of any other game where you get free updates for life. It's not perfect but what do you expect?

Anyway plenty of fun to be had this weekend, with football in cars and rallycross events.

Have fun all! That's what it's about.

If we calculate in time spent and fun worth, LFS is definitely the best investment of my life

Quote from M3THANOL :

Would be nice to hear from Scawen just to get an idea of what the current AI can actually do.

off-topic: The escort turned out to be ripped from a game so it had to go.....but its heart and bones live on in my Plover P2200 mod, not sure if you've tried it?

I think and hope that Scawen will rework the AI with the new physics. Better AI would sell this game much better. Many players play offline. Anyway, I hope so, otherwise I don't see how this game would be profitable with lifetime licenses and a maximum of 400 people on the servers. And better AI would also work online!

off-topic: Yes I tested your Plover. I had recognized a family resemblance with the Escort. The sound is fantastic. The Plover is good too. It's just a question of feeling, I preferred the Escort because it was more lively and agile. The power ratio was perfectly balanced for my taste. The Plover is pleasant to drive but more soft. I like it to attack hard.

Quote from Gutholz :

Can you can reproduce it with standard cars or public mods?
Then you could post the replay it in the Bugs forum. Maybe AI just need to take slightly bigger safety margins or something.

I've never had this problem with standard or modded cars. It seems hard to replicate. I would have to do a replay and provide my test cars. It is complicated. Currently it's work with my last engine.

When I have some time I might post something very simple, a tweak of one of the GTRs with a driveable version for the player and a boosted version of the same car for the bots, to have intense and gripping races .

But I will need the help of a modder for the engine and the behavior of the car, to do something serious and suitable for the mod. Currently I'm just doing engine tests. But this is already a radical change for offline racing, and maybe more.